Editor’s Note: The following interview was conducted by Our Time Press (OTP) Publisher David Mark Greaves, partly while driving around with Assemblyman Charles Barron (East New York) in his district. Earlier this week, it was announced that Barron has come down with the coronavirus, leaving both Greaves and co-publisher Bernice Green quarantined. KCP wishes and prays for the best of health and recovery to all three. Kings County Politics is grateful for having a close family-type relationship with OTP, and KCP Founder/Editor-in-Chief was employed by this media outlet for nearly five years as an editor/reporter. The following edited interview appeared first on the OTP website and in their weekly printed publication. KCP appreciates their letting KCP post it.
Assemblyman Charles Barron is a longtime lawmaker who served previously in the city council prior to being elected to the assembly. He is also an outspoken activist for the black community.
David Mark Greaves (DMG): Black Power, are you asking if it’s still relevant or are you stating it’s still relevant?
Assemblyman Charles Barron (CB): Absolutely. In the 1960s, we shouted Black Power. We did the Black everything, wearing dashikis and using African names, fighting for Black History to be taught in schools, but we didn’t do the power. What I’m saying is that Black Power is more relevant today, even more so, than it was back then. Because now our neighborhoods are being gentrified to the point where the white population is increasing, and the Black population is decreasing. This has political ramifications. We may lose our majority-Black communities, maybe coming down to 51%, 52%, so if three Blacks run and one white run, they could actually win in a majority-Black district. So, we’re being attacked.
The second thing that we have to look out for is reapportionment. Redistricting. When they start drawing these lines once again, they can draw lines that decrease the Black population in Black-majority areas and increase white populations. The third thing is the census count. We, historically, have an undercount in the census, that’s why we encourage everybody to list “Black.” Don’t say you’re Haitian-American or Jamaican or anything else. For this one, I need to be all united under Black, because if you don’t, then your numbers will decrease, therefore your political representation decreases and money coming to your districts will decrease.
Then the last attack on Black Power is voter suppression and gutting of the Voting Rights Act. There have been changes already in the Voting Rights Act. They’re saying we don’t need that anymore because we’re equal now. We have our right to vote. Not true. The voter suppression with voter ID and different strategies to suppress the Black vote is also increasing. So, now more than ever, we need Black Power. All other communities are uniting. The Asians are uniting to increase their numbers, the Latino brothers and sisters are uniting and some of them are Black like us, so they may unite with us. So, Black people need Black Power in the 21st century. We need to unite and once we get Black Power – David, this is the real challenge: Black faces in high places don’t always mean Black Power. Black visibility is not Black Power. Martin Luther King said that the white power structure selects these Black leaders they give positions to and resources to. Knowing they stay in control of them. He called them manufactured leaders, manufactured leaders by the white power structure.
So, even though we have a Black person heading up the Assembly, a Black person heading up the state Senate, a Black person as an Attorney General…We celebrate this. A Black head of the Kings County Democratic Party. The head of the Manhattan Democratic Party is a Black man, Keith Wright; head of the Queens Democratic Party is Greg Meeks. And a Latino, Marcos Crespo, Executive Committee Chair in the Bronx.. All of that Blackness and Latino-ness. The majority leader in the state Senate is a Black woman. The majority leader in the City Council, Laurie Cumbo, relegated, in my opinion, to count votes for the Speaker. All of that Black visibility in high places, but we don’t have any Black Power, because they’re controlled by a white man, Governor Cuomo.
DMG: Well, how would you recognize Black Power if you saw it in action? What would it be doing?
CB: It would – if we had Black Power in action then it would look like this.
In our communities, there would be an independent Black – I would say radical movement, independent from the parties, independent from unions, independent in our communities. There would be an independent Black – I would say radical movement, independent from the parties, independent from unions, independent from anyone, but have a Black political power that would do this: One, in our communities where we are the majority, we should own the land, we should own the businesses, that’s Black Power. We should control the police, that’s Black Power.
We should be in control of the economics of politics, the land, the means of production and all of the social and cultural institutions in our communities that govern our lives. Our communities are like domestic colonies under a racist, parasitic, capitalist system. We have a majority, but we don’t control the politics, the institutions, the hospitals, the school systems. They’re controlled by outsiders. The land is owned by outsiders. The businesses are controlled by outsiders. So, the dollar doesn’t flow in the Black community. It goes from one pocket, the Black pocket, to others. Whereas in other communities, like Chinatown, that’s Chinese power. They control all of the stuff, movie theaters, land, real estate, businesses, and the dollar circulates many times. Little Italy in New York. Same thing. Everything but the Black community. We are a domestic colony in a capitalist system.
DMG: Is there a national Black agenda that anyone pays attention to?
CB: No. The reason why they don’t is because we don’t have Black Power. See the difference between power and influence – if we have to march, demonstrate, scream and holler and you know I believe in that, screaming and marching, to influence and persuade people in power to make decisions for you, that’s influence. We have some semblance of power in East New York. East New York is not gentrified. If you get in a power-position and don’t use it, like in many of our communities. Harlem’s been gentrified. Bed-Stuy is gentrified. Crown Heights is gentrified and there were Black politicians who allowed it to happen. East New York, at least in the 60th Assembly District and the 42nd Council District, we have the power to decide what’s going to be built on City-owned land. That’s the power of the City Council.
DMG: You’ve been anticipating my next question. How does your district reflect Black Power?
CB: I would love for you to come out and I’ll give you a tour of our district. You will see that East New York, the 60th Assembly District, is not gentrified. As a matter of fact, when I came in, 69% of the community was Black and 19% was Latino. It is now 71% Black and 20% Latino. We have a decrease in the white population in East New York.
Two hundred people live in the shelter in a square-block radius on Alabama Avenue. There’s a two-story shelter that covered the entire area – two blocks, three blocks, around the whole square. They want to demolish that, build 300 new units of housing, and keep the shelter, [build a new one], and instead of two stories, it’ll go up 10 stories high. So it will only be on one block and the rest will be affordable housing. They have to get the okay of the City Council member, Inez Barron!
DMG: Right.
CB: This is power! If the local city council member says no to that project, the City council is going to support her, and it cannot be built. The mayor wanted that project, the commissioner wanted that project – these are two powerful people, but it was the City Council Member Inez Barron, who had the power! The mayor said, ‘Councilmember Barron, I need to talk to you about it.’ She said, ‘I’ll speak to you. I’m in City Hall, let’s talk. I’ll have my husband come on by way of phone.’ He said, ‘No, I’ll come to you!’
And he came out to East New York to see Inez, and said, ‘What do I need to give your community in order for you to support this project?’ We said, ‘We don’t do quid pro quo. We’re not having another shelter built – not even a new shelter built on the property of an old shelter – and you do 300 units of housing. We’re not doing that, we’re already over-saturated.’ So, she said “no.’ He said, ‘Well, [the exisitng property] is a worn-down shelter.’ And she said, ‘Well if Health Home Inc. couldn’t take care of that shelter for 30 years, they shouldn’t get it. We got a house that’s almost 100 years old that’s doing well.’ So, he said, ‘Well, that’s just gonna stay. We said we would support a project that had 500 units of housing, not three, no new shelter, and move those people who are in the shelter into permanent housing!
We’ll support that. 500 units, not 300 and then a 10-story new shelter… He left on Friday. Monday, the vote was about to come up for the project. We got a call and they said, ‘Guess what Barron? They’re caving in. There’ll be no shelter. They’ll support the 500 units of housing.’ That’s Black Power! And we did that with over 10,000 units of housing in East New York!
When the developer sits down with us and says, ‘We’re going to build affordable housing,’ we say, ‘Affordable to whom?’ And we define affordability. They say 80% of the AMI. You know, the area median income of New York City is $95,000.00 for a family of three. Eighty percent of that is $75,000. I asked the developer, “Well, what is my neighborhood AMI?” He said he didn’t know. I said, “Well, this meeting is terminated, because you’ve insulted my intelligence. How are you going to build affordable housing in a neighborhood [if] you don’t even know what the AMI is?”
DMG: Right.
CB: So, I told him – this is what you’re going to build – or it’s not going to happen: Eighty percent of the units will be at 50% of the AMI or below, because that’s our $35,000, $36,000.00 for a family of three. That’s our AMI. Then we do have some people making $60,000 $70,000 and $80,000, so 15-20% will be at that level. And guess what? When I checked around East New York, we don’t have one market-rate housing unit in the neighborhood!
DMG: Really?
CB: [Not one) that we signed onto in the 17 years we’ve been in office. Not one. Where can you get a studio apartment for $500 a month. A one-bedroom apartment for $700, two bedrooms for $800 to $900. Three bedrooms for $1,100.00 a month – [for people] making $25, 35, 45, 55 thousand dollars? In East New York.
I know you’re not going to like this, but I’m going to say it anyway – You can print it, or not print it. But Robert Cornegy caused some of the gentrification in Bed-Stuy. He signed onto projects where people would be making over 100% of the AMI, which is $95 thousand dollars, which 60-70% of the people are making that. He allowed that in. He allowed other things.
Next door to us, [Rafael] Espinal, who has the northern part of East New York – he and De Blasio came up with 6,000 units. Atlantic Avenue, Broadway Junction, and all that new stuff coming in there. Eighty percent of that is higher than the income level of East New York. That northern part is gentrified. And I can sit here and name you – Laurie Cumbo allowed gentrification in the Crown Heights area and allowed stuff to go up to 15, 20, 30 stories. These elected officials are responsible for some of the gentrification that’s occurring in our neighborhoods.
And I’ll close on that with this: I was looking at Atlanta, down south, the year 2000. Atlanta used to be almost 80% Black. 60-80% Black. Under the leadership of a Black mayor and a Black city councilman, Atlanta had 15 City Council members in 2000, 13 were Black and two were white. Now, under Black elected leadership, Atlanta is 52% Black and of its 15 council members, seven are white, seven are Black, and one is Latino. That’s gentrification, allowed by Black faces in high places who don’t exercise their power for their people. But they exercise it for the developers and the white executives, like mayors and presidents and governors, who want the city turned over to white developers.
DMG: I have two quick questions: We get ads where they say, “80% of our AMI,” et cetera. You mean, the local councilperson can say to a developer in like, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill… “You want 80%, we understand that; but no, you can’t have it?”
CB: That’s it exactly. That’s why I’m so livid when you see me beating up Black elected officials. I know, ya’ll think I’m a radical and don’t like anybody. Not true. I supported some of these folks and was almost begging them to please use your power. Here’s how it happens. You’ve heard of the ULURP Process. The Uniform Land Use Review Process. It starts off as a Community Board Advisory through a project, then it goes to the Borough Board Advisory, and then it goes to City Planning, and if they say yes, then it comes to the City Council. The final say-so on projects being built on city-owned land is the City Council.
DMG: The mayor can’t overrule?
CB: No! No! That’s what I’m talking about – Black Power! We’re putting Black people in high places and they’re not using their power. The mayor can’t… You remember I told you he came to our office?
DNG: Yes.
CB: And had to negotiate, and we said “No.” Are you kidding me?! He [the mayor] has no power over ULURP. None! David, this is why what Laurie is doing, what Cornegy is doing – is unconscionable and unacceptable. Many others, not just them. If they say no, the project is dead. Why do you think East New York is not gentrified?
DMG: I have to come out there and visit you guys.
CB: I want you to come so you don’t think I’m just talking stuff. I want you to see it, we have four new parks renovated. Over 10,000 units of housing. We have three new $100 million-plus schools and a new library coming in, $36 million. We have a brand-new youth center, a $14 million two-story youth center that the community is going to own after 30 years! That’s Black Power!
DMG: I gotta get out there.
CB: David, let’s do it. I am going to back everything I have said to you in this interview, I’m going to back it up with the material, real-life, you-can-feel-it projects!
DMG: Fair enough. But also, is it too late for Bed-Stuy?
CB: We’ll see, a lot of the real estate is gone in Bed-Stuy and there’s not a lot of vacant land left. We still have vacant land left in East New York. I’ll give you another project – this is when you know there’s a difference between power and influence. When you have the ability to make decisions in your best interest, you have the power to do that, that’s power. When you have to demonstrate, scream, holler and persuade others in power to make it, that’s influence. So, I’ll give you an example of even influence: Remember when I interrupted the governor around his “State of the State?”
DMG: Yes.
CB: And I spoke out against him and you’d think that would get me punished. On the contrary! He called me up, and he said, “I want to build a park in your district.” I said, “Go ahead, but I’m not standing with you at a press conference. Then he has his people – at 888 Compton Avenue, which I’m going to take to you – it’s 22 acres of land that used to be the Brooklyn Development Center. They’re demolishing that. So, his agency, the State and Housing agency, they’re going to accept proposals. I told them, literally – you can ask them, and I’ll let you talk to the commissioner – I said, “Commissioner, we are not accepting you coming into our community and giving 22 acres of land to white developers! That’s not happening!”
I didn’t have no power to stop that, like I do on the City Council. By the state – they can just do it. But that’s not going to happen. We don’t argue for MWBEs (Minority and Women Business Enterprises) contracts. That’s down the line. You gotta get the prime contract. Gotta be the major contractor. You have to own the land! When you get MWBEs, that’s on a subcontracting level. You want them to be the general contractor, who owns the land!
So, I told them, “We’re not supporting anything that’s going to give this all to whites! Can you give us a minority contractor?” She said, “No problem.” They put out the request. She called me up, “You’re going to be pleased.” I said, “I’m not into ‘minorities.’ I’m into Black. Minorities could be women, could be anybody. I’m talking Black contractors.” I was so pleased! Of the 22 acres, we have a Black general contractor development company from Harlem. On a third of the land, they’re going to build 5,000 units of housing and they’re going to own the land and be the general contractor. And they can hire. And they’ll be VPs and all that other stuff. Another third is to a white developer. And the last third is to a not-for-profit that is diverse and has whites, Blacks and everybody. That’s what we are supposed to be doing in office!
If she would have been talking to somebody else, they would have been so happy that they’re building houses, they would have asked them for jobs. And they would have said, “Yes, we’re going to create jobs.” But if you get the general contractor, you can hire your own people! You don’t start off asking for jobs!
But that’s what these other politicians are doing. “I’m bringing in jobs, we’re bringing in businesses.” Yeah? But who owns it? I can give you two or three examples of how we got so much! Ebenezer Project, right across the street from the BRC, Inez negotiated that. We own! We have a Black woman, Erica Taylor, owning from her father, Tom Taylor. She now owns a third of that project! Because of us. That’s Black Power!
